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View Full Version : New Season, Let's get to work.



Potent357
01-15-2007, 12:53 PM
As Davis said in the other thread, The Banquet was a huge success. The venue, socializing and the food was much better than in the years I have attended.

The videos are also a very nice compliment to the evening. A hearty congratulations to the Board for making sure the event came off so well.

I spent most of December trying to decide if I wanted to commit to the Board and I made my decision too late.
By the time I determined I was willing to do it, the ballots were done and I decided that I would wait for another year.

With that said, I do plan to be an advocate for (and to) the Board this year (or possibly a thorn in their sides). I feel that 2007 will be critical in future stability of our region.

I hope that the Board takes a critical look at their individual responsibilities and "hits the ground running" on some major initiatives.

All too quickly, we are faced with the warming weather and other commitments take shape and then we are at mid-summer before you know it. If the Board wants to get some work done then January through March is the time to do it.

Here are some of the things that have been going through my head:

Riverside
Wal-Mart is going in next door. The area is going to start getting far more attention than at any other time. I would wager that the Principal is going to be under far increased pressure this year. I think it's highly likely that we could be the loser in the scenario.
We must meet with the Principal, make absolutely sure that she knows that our commitment is there for the coming year and we need to step up and finally offer some of the benefits to the school that we all discussed back when we first went there.

Whether it's some sort of a safety seminar to work with the Drivers Ed teachers or maybe a Saturday Student's car show (run by the Region) or even more Benefit events to just put more cash in their hands, we must STAND OUT and make sure we are known as a benefit to the school.

Where would we be without that lot?



Other sites:
Davis proved that it can be done, but we, as a region, go back for decades with hard working members traversing the valley, talking to every owner of flat land. We are simply not in a geographic region conducive to large expanses of flat, paved land.

However, this effort also needs to be re-doubled. There are land owners who might listen to the right combination of personality and professionalism. The Board needs to figure out a way to get in the door of some of the region's property owners and real estate managers. We have nothing to lose and if we put together a professional enough package and something to benefit them, it could happen.

It must go beyond "Can we use your lot?". It must be framed as an opportunity for them. If the property is for sale, we will be bringing a bunch of people there that can see it. If they have a business to promote, we can be their conduit for some free promotion and a way to funnel people to their business.

We have proven time and time again that we can raise $500-$1500 at a Benefit Event and if we have to do a quasi Benefit event to please a land owner then what is the loss. If we can, in a kind way, bribe a land owner by raising money for their pet cause in exchange for future use of their facility then I see no problem with it.



Rich Mixture:
John does a fantastic job with the RM, but every month as I flip through I wonder if anyone out there is reading it. Interesting, member written, content is almost non-existent and at this point it is little more than a damn expensive way to put out an event calendar.

I am a staunch supporter of the RM and believe it should continue in printed form, but it must have some people helping the editor. I have personal experience as a former (and somewhat failed) editor. I brought tons of great stuff to the RM, but I eventually crumbled under the weight. I got no assistance from anyone and I grew tired of begging for everything from event stories to the postage to mail the damn things.

With the profound lack of participation of so many of the members, the Board needs to look at it's single largest expense, the RM. I plan on writing stuff for at least every other issue this year. I know there are other talented contributors in this region and we need to approach them and give the members something fresh and interesting to experience each month in their club magazine.

When I was editor, I remember applying the mailing labels to the issues and laughing that I had never heard of, much less met, most of the people that we mailed them to.

It made me wonder why those people were paying the dues. There must be some good stories there and I see that type of stuff done in other regions and civic groups. We all complain about why the same 10 people show up at meetings and the same people put forth all the effort. Well, we need to wake up the membership and put the spotlight on them.



The Forum:
This wonderful new tool of communication is both an asset and a liability. In the last 6 years internet forums have become de rigeur in almost any hobby or social group. They have brought on a form of instant community that has heretofore been impossible.

Initially, I liked what the forum brought to our region, but lately it seems that many members shun it (I do) because there is little is any content that is relevant to anyone but the people posting.

It is mostly a bunch of personal conversations between the same 8-10 people. I have had many long time (and newbie) members come up to me and inquire about the relevance of the forum. Lots of people just don't understand and lots just don't feel welcome. Don't you people notice how the great personalities of our region just don't come through on the forum. Presently, the forum seems little more than a high school chat room. It needs to be so much more.

We need the forum, but we also need to make some changes. All the stale posts need to be pruned. The content should be fresh. There needs to be some level of contribution from each member of the board. Personally, I don't think the Board needs a "private room". If you guys want to talk super double secret stuff then it needs to be done in private emails or phone calls and not on a public forum that is supposed to make everyone feel included.

The forum software SUCKS. Part of the reason I stay away is because the software just doesn't work for me. It's a low-rent software package and is frankly an embarrasment.

There is lots of things I would suggest, but I also know that the internet site as a whole (not only the forum) is something that is now handled largely outside of the purview of the board. We currently have one member who goes far above and beyond the call of duty to keep the internet site running. My problems with the site aren't his fault. He has done, and continues to do, a great job, but this is another area where he needs help. Sadly, I think that we now need to have a Board Member who is responsible for, and reports on, the electronic state of the region.

The website, what appears on it and how it is run is something the board should be actively working on. It's no longer just a small part of what we are. To many, the forum is our region's FACE. Well, we need to keep our face more current, more relevant and have appointed members who make an effort to provide content and region-wide discussion in a more inviting format.



Autocross:
We are an autocross region. Just about 100% of everything this region focuses on is Autocross. As many people know, in other regions there is a strong road racing presence, a rallying presence, a tour presence and in the big regions there entire committees that handle only national events.

We have it pretty easy. We have the same structure as the big regions, yet we find it quite a chore to put on eleven autocross events for 100 drivers or less per year.

We have made subtle tweaks to how we run events. Personally, I think things run well. I just hope that with the new year and largely new Board that before any decisions are made about run groups, start times, tech procedures, grid or any other aspect of what our region is comfortable with, that the Board call for intense member discussion on the subjects.

I have many ideas about how we can improve what we do, but trying to fight the same old argument about workers is a losing battle. Every civic organization knows that out of 10 participants in any event, that only about 6 of those people will be "good particpants". Every endeavor has dead weight individuals and instead of catering our events to them and tailoring to them so as to act as a day care center, we should move forth, embrace the people that acutally want to participate, work and help with the process. Eventually, the dead weight idiots will get the message and quit coming.

We should not cater to the lowest common denominator. We have no requirement to let everyone participate. Appoint a grid captain, have a committee that can meet before each event and if there are drivers who are deemed to be dead weight and not "working" then the responsible committee will be in charge of either returning their entry fee or not letting them register in the first place. Send these people away and you will be shocked at how attitudes will change.

My ideas here go far deeper and I can elaborate to the board, but the critical thing that I want to relate is that we are not a run group region and I don't believe we need the structure required by run groups. I don't want a prescribed work period and I don't think many others do either. Sure, it's how they do it in big cities, but who cares.

If run groups is where this board is going and they have the votes to do it, fine, but there are better alternatives. Educating our participants, giving the expectations in the drivers meeting and then enforcing our rules is how we can fix this problem (and many others).



Autocross Committee:
An almost secret society. The power held in the autocross committee is not even partially understood by the membership.
The Autocross Committee is the glue that has held this region together. For a decade (even decades) Jack Sampson and Jim Pryce and others have worked far more hours than any Board Member.
These are the people who settle class disputes, or even disputes about how the events are run. These are also the guys that keep all the class points, take care of classing and bumping questions and generally do all the behind the scenes work.

The funny thing is that until the furor over the scoring at the Airport event, I would wager that many of our newer members didn't have a clue what the Autocross Committee was.

Yes, there are rules for local autocross. We, as a region, have Bylaws, and the Autocross Committee is tasked with enforcing and intrepreting the rules fairly to all competitors. Have you, as a member, ever even read our region bylaws? I didn't think so.

My thoughts are that the Autocross Committee needs to be less of a stealth body. There should be a vocal presence on the board and a routine report to the membership to inform and update them on the comings and goings on the Autocross Committee.

Do we need new blood on the AC? Maybe. New blood is a good idea, but do we have members willing to put forth the work and commitment necessary to cover what people like Jack Sampson and Jim Pryce have done for decades? I don't know.

At the least, it is something that needs discussed. I think that someone new appointed to the committee to learn from, and question, the established members would be a good start.



Bylaws and Region Rules:
Along with the discussion above, I think it is time that each member is provided with a copy of the Bylaws and a copy of any and all Regional rules. Whether it is a supplemental mailing or an inclusion to Rich Mixture, we cannot have another season of events where rules and bylaws are mentioned by some and never read by others.



The Trailer, Timing & Scoring, Pylons, Misc.:
It's the little things that drive people crazy.
At 5pm on event day that trailer is closed and nobody except very rare Board members give it a thought until the next schmuck has to open the doors at 7am next event day.
Frankly, it's shameful what our event organizers and event workers have to work with. The Board needs to spend some time and money this year, before high season, and get our house in order

The fender on the trailer is now a 4-5 year old problem. It is held on by bubble gum and prayer. Someone hire a professional with a screw gun and get the damn fender (the incorrect fender for the trailer, by the way) and have it affixed in such a way that we don't have to worry about it flying off while on the interstate and decapitating another driver.

The pylons are a mess. I don't even recall the last time we bought a bunch of pylons. As someone that designed at least 3 courses in each of the last 3 years, I have touched those pylons more than most of you. They are a wreck and many won't stand up on their own.

Many members have uses for old pylons and they will buy a few for a reasonable price. The Board needs to investigate buying new pylons. We need a few new of all the sizes. The tiny, the medium and the largest. We should buy 20 of each size, keep the good from our existing stock and sell or trash the rest.

We need to have a Timing & Scoring committee who meets every other month to review the state of our equipment. We have far too many events stopped due to a faulty connection or a crappy wire. These things need to be maintained with direct lines of responsibility. We need to know exactly who to go to when our events come to a screeching halt.

It might even be smart to not keep ANY of the fragile T&S equipment in the hostile, cramped enviornment that is the trailer.

On that note, I hear grumblings from many members that there is far better and more current equipment out there. Who in the membership can compile this information and present it to the board for review?

Towing: It needs to be put in stone and preached from the mountain top. If you tow the trailer, you do the event FREE. As it sits I have heard different opinions on that from different Board Members. It's silly. As far as I know, that has been the "rule" since a Board Meeting I was at almost a decade ago. We have a hard enough time spreading the towing task around. It needs to be clear that if you are helping the region out that we appreciate your effort. Tow vehicles and gasoline isn't cheap.

The trailer needs another one of its routine enemas. We have too much stuff. If we are in a situation where we need all that stuff then the Board needs to have the the motivation to spec out a replacement trailer, find a buyer for our current unit and then hold a couple of "Benefit Events" so we can afford to buy it.

Let's put it this way, the SINGLE WORST PART ABOUT PUTTING ON AN EVENT is having to spend 45 minutes at 7am emptying the trailer from the goons who loaded it at the last event (Thank God for those goons, but it is always a wreck). I have done that 7am ritual more than many of you and it sucks.



Rally or travel tour:
The great new members of this region have lost out on something that I also lost out on. Some of the greatest stories I heard from clubmembers when I joined were tales about the fun to be had on overnight or weekend "tours". It was great fun for couples and friends and everyone seemed to enjoy those club functions.

Getting together away from the stress and pace of an autox event is good to raise the level of comraderie amongst the members. We need this type of togetherness again and I hope that the board appoints someone to get at least one event off the ground this year.


That's it for now.
I said I would be a thorn in the side of the board and I am sure this quasi rant will be viewed poorly by some.

I don't really care because all of this analysis is solely to improve this region. Right now, I am making these suggestions from the sidelines. I hope that the new Board brings some, or all, of this up for discussion at their first meeting.

SeanB
01-15-2007, 09:59 PM
I am well aware the forum software sucks. The change over is not as easy as switching a light bulb. I am currently trying to work out technical details with our host. I hope to have the change over be as seamless as possible.

What exactly do you want in terms of contents? Our site is actually one of the better auto-x club sites compared to some I have seen. The forum is meant to be used for friendly banter. If we kept the forum too technical there wouldn't be any traffic at all.

Potent357
01-15-2007, 10:18 PM
By content I mean some more participation by the board, various committees and by various members that have genuine knowledge and history to contribute.

Unfortunately, and thorough nobody's fault in particular, I feel the forum has become a somewhat unwelcome place for newbies. A few members have come by and made a post but they don't get any worthwhile direction and they never come back.

I have talked to many people that claim to be put off by the forum. I have made special effort to invite people and help them create accounts, but there never seems to be any worthwhile discussion to join.

One breeds the other and if participation is 90% done by 10 people then there isn't likely to be a plethora of threads and topics for others to feel safe to jump upon.

I have seen other regions have contests, trivia games and other topics and discussions centered about happenings within the club, within the community. Someone else has to do it. The site admin can only put up a properly functioning site and then let the others make it happen (you have more than done your part)

My complaints about the forum are minor. It's not a great avenue for discussion to me and I know many others who feel the same. I just think it could be so much more.

There's a certain intimidation factor involved with getting into a forum. I just feel that after 3 years the forum would be a greater place for information and socializing.

It's not a knock on you Sean. You have laid out a great spread, but for some reason not very many people are eating.

ShortysTRM
01-15-2007, 10:49 PM
I agree with most everything you've said, besides the website/forum critique. The website is now updated quite frequently, and has a nice, new layout. Though it doesn't necessarily feel as friendly as it used to, it is definitely more organized and professional in appearance.

As for the forums, the club has already decided to pay for upgraded forum software. Like Sean said, it's not going to be easy. I think the content on our forums is friendly and informative, and though sometimes we may stray from autocross and setup discussions, posting a Pedal Cam video, or a story about your trip to the dealership, can be very informative, too. I wish it was possible to archive every thread posted on this forum, as it's nice to have for reference when you need it. Many of the posts on this forum are eloquently written or chock full of words to live by, with your's most definitely included, Bill. My only problem with the forums is that the "Log Me In Automatically" checkbox doesn't work any more for me, which is annoying if you like to check them often.

I would love to start helping out with Rich Mixture each month, but without knowing who is responsible for event reviews and such, it's hard to know when you should be the one to write one. More member content would be great.

I still agree about run groups in that I don't feel they're necessary with such a dedicated group of individuals. I still don't think that we need to drive away the slackers. These people create revenue for us, as well as giving us someone to be ahead of in our classes. If it means I have to put down the camera and work half the day, so be it, but I get so tired of seeing people looking all over the place, except in the general direction of the moving vehicle on course, talking to each other, and paying no attention whatsoever to the area of the course they are assigned to. Regardless of how you punish these people, they're still going to be theones who don't shag cones, don't make sure they're called in, don't monitor off courses, stand there for 7 minutes before they stop the event to get a replacement, etc etc etc etc etc etc. With or without a camera in hand, I'm standing on course about 1/4 of the day, and I still don't feel like I do enough. There are many individuals more dedicated to working than I am, so I know we can manage without the lazy bastards moping around the corner stations.

Potent357
01-15-2007, 10:58 PM
Troy, great contribution.

The forums should be fun, I just think there could be more if there were more participation. I could be wrong why so many people stay away in droves, but my opinion is coming from what I know.

So far, the two people that have responded are two of the people that ALWAYS raise their hand to help. It's funny how that works out.

You guys do plenty for the club, I am just trying to get some of the others more motivated.

gtfour77
01-15-2007, 11:42 PM
These are some excellent ideas and comments. Can't wait to discuss all of this at the next meeting...

ShortysTRM
01-15-2007, 11:44 PM
Maybe we should just make it a point to advertise the forums at each event. I know that a lot of the younger people find the forums, hover around for a while, but never really contribute. I'm not sure that many of our older participants ever realize the forums exist, and if they do, they may not understand what they can be used for.

I think that a big part of our online participation stems from pictures and videos posted of each event and the people who stop in to see them. Unfortunately, I never had long enough access to computers for the last 6 months or so, so I haven't been making the videos for each event. However, everything's up and running at our house, so I'm going to try to go back and make videos for each event I've missed, as well as try to keep up with current events this season. It seems like we used to have 3 or 4 people posting photos of each event, but I haven't seen any pictures for a while now, either.

SentraWV
01-15-2007, 11:46 PM
I have talked to many people that claim to be put off by the forum. I have made special effort to invite people and help them create accounts, but there never seems to be any worthwhile discussion to join.

That's a self-fulfilling prophecy. The forum is fairly wide open - if people want to come in and start better discussions, nobody is going to stop them. Unless Sean has been ruling with an iron fist behind the scenes. :wink:

Judging from the midling response to the onling registration and the near-meltdown we had a couple years ago when the idea of an online-only RM was floated, I think we've got a large number of (older?) members/participants who aren't comfortable online. I'm not sure how we can make things more inviting for them.

To kind of follow up on Bill's original post - you don't have to be on the Board or a recognized committee to help the cause and make your voice heard about the way the club is run. It is your club, after all. Jump in - help out.

SeanB
01-15-2007, 11:51 PM
I think the young kids don't know about the forums.
I think the old guys don't know how to use the forums.

Hmm... quite a pickle of a situation... I really don't want to direct all traffic to the forums by routing anyone that goes to swvrscca.org to the forums. Maybe we need a snappy name for the forums, like RacePA is for the PA crew.

Edit: about the RM... I am sure Martin and I could do a monthly article on our cone adventures. Mind you it would fill up a LOT of pages since we um had 35 or 36 events EACH last year.

SentraWV
01-15-2007, 11:57 PM
I would love to start helping out with Rich Mixture each month, but without knowing who is responsible for event reviews and such, it's hard to know when you should be the one to write one. More member content would be great.

Anybody can write an event review. It's traditionally been the event organizer, but one from a participant would bring a different perspective (particularly since most organizers don't write one anymore. :evil: ).

The bottom line is that anybody at anytime can write just about anything for RM. I haven't turned down anything yet!

wvphoto
01-16-2007, 12:25 AM
I think the young kids don't know about the forums.
I think the old guys don't know how to use the forums.



i'm middle aged... i like the forum.. wish more folks would post here.. i enjoy reading and posting..
webpage..
hey.. more power to you.. i wish i could update my business site as often as you guys keep it..
very good.!!!

other comments.. yup.. we need some more lots.. but where.. ?? our city builds a ball park that seats 10k.. and parks.. 40 cars. ?? wtf..
there are just no big lots..

the stamping plant is closed.. i am working a lead there.. i have a contact and have sent a letter.. Mr Park who owns the property and just bought all the stamping equiptment.. is a car guy..

i hope to be more active this year.. i just had a lot going on last year and fell out of the autox thing late in the season.. new stickies.. and i think i am ready for 2007

Here's to a GREAT year.!!!! :D

ShortysTRM
01-16-2007, 12:56 AM
I'm always afraid that after spending 2 hours writing an in-depth review, I will come to find that someone else has already submitted one.

stupid-loud-subaru
01-16-2007, 01:29 AM
I think the young kids don't know about the forums.
I think the old guys don't know how to use the forums.



i'm middle aged... i like the forum.. wish more folks would post here.. i enjoy reading and posting..
webpage..
hey.. more power to you.. i wish i could update my business site as often as you guys keep it..
very good.!!!

other comments.. yup.. we need some more lots.. but where.. ?? our city builds a ball park that seats 10k.. and parks.. 40 cars. ?? wtf..
there are just no big lots..

the stamping plant is closed.. i am working a lead there.. i have a contact and have sent a letter.. Mr Park who owns the property and just bought all the stamping equiptment.. is a car guy..

i hope to be more active this year.. i just had a lot going on last year and fell out of the autox thing late in the season.. new stickies.. and i think i am ready for 2007

Here's to a GREAT year.!!!! :D
i used to work at the stamping plant. it would make a good lot i

camry3sfe
01-16-2007, 03:18 AM
i read the part about the possible need for alternative lots. I am fairly new to autox still but I have enjoyed the events that i have been to with this region so far. anyhow I am a student at wvu and have always thought since i started racing that --> morgantown <-- would be a great spot for an event. i am sure that many of you are familiar with the town. recently walmart moved out of the mountaineer mall and basically has left a large space of the mall unused. with walmart gone i think many of the businesses there have seen less people coming up there. the lot is a bit bigger than riverside. and with walmart gone there are not many cars there these days. an event here i think could be good for us and the mall as well.

the mall would get from us... increased traffic from potential customers because of people seeing the event. being a college town students might even come out to compete, increasing the number of entries(good for us too).

for us... we have a bigger lot, and an alternate lot.


although i am not an official member of SCCA, I am wanting to help the club out in my free time. i love autox so i wish to be a help to the sport.

RobbieNelson
01-16-2007, 08:58 AM
I currently run 3 websites. All of those sites feature forum software. One runs phpBB and the other two run vBulletin. phpBB(the current forum software here) is free, it is good for that. vBulletin is a major upgrade, but it cost ~$160 +$30/year. This site's upgrade it currently underway. Sean, PM me about the hosting problem.

The root of the problem with forum participation is the frequency of visits. I visit the site about every 4 hrs on average. This keeps me up with all the latest discussions. I'm sure lots of folks only visit about once a week. Reading all the new post from one week would take hours. I'm not sure how to solve that problem.

Running a very close second is people just don't understand the software. I would highly recommend an informational session with an overhead projector to teach people how to use the new software(vBulletin). I would be glad to help. I'll be giving a similar presentation on phpBB to my fraternity on Saturday. I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to change my setup to accomodate vBulletin.

SeanB
01-16-2007, 10:29 AM
An event in Morgantown wouldn't happen, partially because 90% of the club is based in and around Charleston. We've had away autoxes before at Fairmont, Clarksburg, etc and they are a logistical nightmare.

wvphoto
01-16-2007, 11:52 AM
The root of the problem with forum participation is the frequency of visits. I visit the site about every 4 hrs on average. .

robbie....you need a hobbie..
LOL

lilred
01-16-2007, 06:41 PM
Sorry for a long post ................

I have a few suggestion and ideas of the various topics at hand.

Riverside: I honestly think Riverside is a great place for us, it is simply hard to find such an accessible place, yet big enough for a decent size course and yet roomy enough for 75+ participants in a pit area. Personally I’m not 100% how everything works yet, or even if it’s already been discussed, but can we have a written contract with Riverside? Or can we with any place for that matter?

Also is there anything we can do about vehicles left on the lot before our events? I know last year it was funny at first, but once it became frequent it was definitely uplifting when the school year ended.

Forum & Website: Honestly I think they are great, simple, and fairly efficient. But from what others have said, I can understand there is very little “content.” Meaning reading material, something you constantly go back for. Yea individual posts are great, but what makes forums so great is the ability to easily find or create information on just about anything. Ours is, honestly lacking, say on DIY articles, featured articles, and hardcore reading material that makes people come back to find more. Take other (or your favorite) forums for example, open your eyes and see what it is that makes you visit frequently, how about the layout, extras, features. Lets make suggestions to Sean or whoever so we can make it a better place to goto.

I think we also should have a better help\tutorial section, specifically aimed at new members suggesting do they need a guide to use our forum, it could obviously be generic. We can also have a link for current users.

To increase website/forum traffic we need to do two things I can think of right now. One, advertise it! I can’t remember if it’s on our trailer or not but it should be. What about our logo? I’m sure there are even better ways to advertise.
The second thing I think we need to do, is make people want to come to it, and that goes back to my suggestions on improving the forum. We also need to figure out if we are going to give discounts to people registering online and how we will do that. We tell participants at the events to go to our website to get a discount for the next event, and then hopefully we will generate more traffic. In theory.

RM: I think what people have stated is exactly what it needs, like the last one about Sean and Marteens trip to Florida. I’m not exactly sure, but it needs something. I think it is very important to keep the mailing, at least for the near future. Simply because in this state, people don’t always have a computer or internet access, or both, and we would theoretically loose people. It is also good reading material and a nice hand out to a future prospective participant.

Bylaws\Region Rules: Why don’t most people know about these, simple how can they if they only just show up and read the forums, totally skipping the website, or just attend the events. I don’t think they are a sticky on the forums, if it’s great, if not it should be.

But I think I have a great idea for informing people of these and other great things, but as well as generate more website traffic. We could use a pamphlet of some sort given out to new drivers especially, but to whoever wants one, at all the events. Sorta like a RM, but better. We could include the Bylaws, Regions Rules, Participation requirements, Schedule for EVENTS AND MEETINGS, Website, and even hints, tips, and how they can become a member of SCCA. Doing something like this, at least in my head, would help keep new people coming back and possibly even attending meetings.

Why don’t people attend meetings a) Distance b) Aren’t aware of one c) Don’t read RM, thoroughly d) Don’t know or frequent the website/forum. Also the “Members Meeting” could be confusing to individuals who are not aware anyone, generally, are welcomed. I am not aware of us heavily speaking of our meetings during events either, and that’s where it starts.

In all I think we have a great following, but I believe our biggest problems stem from it being a relatively small group of loyal people. To grow and be bigger we must advertise, appeal, and help people interested (or not) in autocross into coming to our events, and most importantly coming back. And thats is where the importance of RM, the website, forum, and us as individuals come to play.

Once again, sorry for the long post!!!

Jason V
01-16-2007, 07:42 PM
We can grow the program if we want too.. 07 will be a year of change no doubt about that...

Bill I know you HATE the run group thing but I have asked arround alot on it and most I speak to are in favor of it (as am I)... Every other region I have ever run with no matter how small (and yes some smaller than us).... use some sort of run group system... Come to the next meeting if you care to talk further on the issue!!!

Wes
01-16-2007, 07:58 PM
Well I haven't been around very long, but I do see one problem that sticks out in my mind, and that would be getting people to work. I mean, at the last event it was horrendous...At one point there was only two course workers and one of which was my friend who has never autocrossed and just came to watch.

I apologize for saying this, but I found it very very rude that some people decide not to work. When this happens, especially at small events, it leaves the same people to stand in the cold for hours. Sadly I don't know if doing run groups will fix this problem, but at least it would make it blatantly obvious who is not doing their job. Though from the little bit of autocross experience that I do have, all of the events that were ran with run groups went much smoother.

I would love to elaborate on this more, but I think that everyone knows that this is a problem, and I have a lot of homework to attend to.

ShortysTRM
01-16-2007, 09:35 PM
The onlt two events I've been to where run groups were used were, in my mind, completely unfair. Everyone here knows what happened at the MOV airport event, and the other event in mind is the BRR Mercer Airport event. I know that FTD isn't an official award, but many people strive for it, and I use my competitive placement vs. the rest of the field as a gauge of how I've done at an event. If one group runs in damp, 40 degree weather, and another in 65 degree sun, there is no consistency. This is trivial to a lot of you, though, I'm sure. Also, there were 3 runs at a maximum at both of the aforementioned events. They were fairly large events, but that's not an outstanding number of runs to attest to the efficiency of the run group system. Other factors may have also played a role in the number of runs permissable, though.


A big problem, in my opinion, is our instinct to say "That's a great idea, we'll talk about it at our next meeting." The same people who come to meetings are reading these posts, as are a lot of other people who may not have time to get there (I, for one, am working at that time). We should use these forums as a perpetual meeting, where ideas are truly considered, and not just stuck on a back burner for 3 weeks until the next meeting. If we're interested in getting things done, then let's get started now.

Wes
01-16-2007, 09:44 PM
I agree that conditions change, but at the last event of the season Miro pulled one last dry run giving him the win for his division, and that was a very small event without run groups. What I mean is, weather is always going to be a problem, it is really just a luck of the draw.

TheRedGT
01-16-2007, 10:58 PM
I will make this short.

In an effort to contribute my opinion about this website I spent considerable time crafting the best politically correct post I could. It was a detailed message of several paragraphs. I had to break for a few minutes to attend to something my better half wanted and when I returned I had been logged out and my message was gone.

It just so happens that this stupid logging behavior was the subject of my message along with a few other comments on what I think are drawbacks to visiting here. Basically, the website sucks. How is that for short and to the point.

Because the swvrscca.org website does not handle cookies correctly, I assume, all manner of ill feelings occur. This is but one more. I will not detail the other times I stifled posts about this, but since the door was opened in this thread let this stand as input from another member about the subject. If there is anything that irritates me more than a website that erases my time and thoughts I can't think of it right now.

If anyone is interested in how a website is designed that is at the other end of the spectrum go visit WVSTREETS.COM. You might learn something.

Also, I happen to be one of those "old guys" and resent the implication that THAT is the issue. This is but one of several forums I belong to and participate in, but is the least popular on my list. I keep a number of tabs on my web browser active daily with a variety of forums, this is not one of them. I visit, try to find what I came for, and leave.......or get kicked out by ignorant software. Try dealing with issues of assignable cause. It might broaden the website to include more than the clique that nestles there now.

TheRedGT
01-16-2007, 11:24 PM
With that said, the other things Bill brought up are speaking my voice as well. That is what he does, he listens to people and maps it onto reality. He doesn't try to create a separate one.

I'll say it bluntly, for all those who are swinging the big sticks about run groups, change the format to run groups only and you will have one less participant. I do not mind experimenting, and variety. In fact, I like it. But take away my freedom to enjoy the whole of a long and sometimes tedius day doing what got me started in the first place and you will have eliminated what I came for.

As for the argument about workers, like Bill has said before, it simply isn't a problem when he mans the microphone. Obviously, therefore, there are other answers. The failure of the course worker is indicative, IMHO, of a general failure of the subject in general. I won't get started.

Don't get it wrong, I have been involved in some form of racing, directly or indirectly, for almost forty years. Presently I enjoy putting myself and my car to the autocross test. But I, like many who come to these events, are here for some things it appears those who are so strongly for run groups either have never had, or have forgotten.

Don't think because there is no opposing dialogue that there is no dissent. Sometimes people simply choose to go away

ShortysTRM
01-16-2007, 11:45 PM
I wouldn't stop coming to events if we use run groups, but I do think it would change the overall feel of our region. I hope we don't switch to run groups, at least not for every event, but it looks as if we may.

On another note, it seems that this thread has really brought out some of the aforementioned bystanders of the forums. If these people would post on a regular basis, maybe our content would be more broadly appealing. It does show that people are reading the posts, even if they're not posting.

gtfour77
01-16-2007, 11:46 PM
A big problem, in my opinion, is our instinct to say "That's a great idea, we'll talk about it at our next meeting." The same people who come to meetings are reading these posts, as are a lot of other people who may not have time to get there (I, for one, am working at that time). We should use these forums as a perpetual meeting, where ideas are truly considered, and not just stuck on a back burner for 3 weeks until the next meeting. If we're interested in getting things done, then let's get started now.

Troy, I agree that in perfect world this could possibly be a good place to discuss things as "more" people can get involved. However, lack of personal and direct feedback renders this very resource useless for these kind of matters...I can name many people that will simply not participate for this particular reason... I have seen too many things get out of hand on forums that would otherwise be solved very quickly and painlessly in a meeting... Don't forget basic psychology...we are all somewhat annonymous and "invincible" on here. I am sorry you can't make it to the meetings, I really understand as some of have jobs that have no set hours... No pun intended for the oposition of your argument but this is just the way I feel. Running of the club has been put into hands of a few individuals that will ultimatelly decide on these issues. You are certainly a VERY dedicated member of this community and the BOD will certainly listen and consider your opinions. You know you are always welcome to contact the BOD if, wherther it is in writing, at an event or coming to visit and talk. This applies to EVERYONE...

ShortysTRM
01-17-2007, 12:31 AM
I'm not at all trying to disagree with you, but can't I contact the BOD on the forums? Plenty of the Board members frequent the forums, so do we really need to formally contact Board members just to have our opinions considered?

If we consider basic psychology, we'll also see that some of the people who will speak up on the fourms may not have the courage to speak up at a meeting. I know that if I was in a room full of you guys, all of whom seemed to agree on something, I would not be the one to oppose.

Also, the "cookies" problem would probably be my biggest complaint, too, though it's not going to keep me away from the forums.

MountaineerSTi
01-17-2007, 12:33 AM
I would love to see this content split into individual threads (one for each problem) because my brain is small and it's hard to piece all the different posts together. Maybe we could do that in the "Complaints/Problems" forum?

Maybe start each thread with a post similar to below (three problems mentioned) and then let posters give feedback on that one problem.

We have some great innovative minds in this region and I'm sure we can solve every problem that presents itself.

(or maybe this is all a bad idea and I should go to bed....)

Problem: Web Forum Software Sucks
Status: In process of being solved
Summary:
It sounds like the forum software will be updated when Sean feels able to make the smoothest transition. I'm sure if there are other web programmers out there with the time, ability, and software...Sean wouldnt turn down your help.

Problem: To run-group or not to run-group
Status: Unsolved
Summary:
I am actually ignorant of the reasons for either side. It would be great if those for and against could provide a list of examples on why one way is better than the other. So far, other than weather, it seems like we have just seen reasons like "other regions do it" or "It's just not my style." I would love to see actual theories on why one way will be more beneficial to our region (back up your claims). Am I getting more runs one way, are we guaranteeing course workers, etc.?

Problem: Rich Mixture lacks content
Status: Unsolved
Summary:
It appears membership is not providing much content to run in the publication. Perhaps we could schedule people for write-ups just like we do for course-design and membership meetings. We could do pictorial DIY anytime someone decides make an upgrade or for general maintenance. My garage and camera are at the disposal of those who need a place as long as you do a write-up for RM.

SeanB
01-17-2007, 12:44 AM
The forum software is being dealt with, its funny that most of the people having issues didn't contact me. I don't bite, really other than Bill making a post a while back no one else mentioned it. I am at almost every event, my phone number is in the members directory, my email is on the site. If there are issues its not difficult to drop a line. How do I know there are problems when I can't replicate them on my end. But now that there is a big thread going everyone comes out of the woodwork. Brilliant!!!

ShortysTRM
01-17-2007, 12:50 AM
I PM'ed you about it when it started, but like you just said, no one else had contacted you about it at the time, so we assumed that it was just a problem for me, and that everyone else's worked fine.

wvphoto
01-17-2007, 09:09 AM
i have done run groups in columbus region.. cumberland.. and once in lexington..
i like them. ?
not sure what all the fuss is.. ?

in cumberland.. your number on your car.. was..101...or 202...303..
the first digit was your run group

they ran 125 cars thru there .. and i was loaded on the trailer by 3 ..
very efficient..

what are the cons ?

Jason V
01-17-2007, 09:36 AM
Please check the members only section for a new thread there!!

administerturbo
01-17-2007, 10:25 AM
I would love to see this content split into individual threads (one for each problem) because my brain is small and it's hard to piece all the different posts together. Maybe we could do that in the "Complaints/Problems" forum?

a little structure....great idea!

TheRedGT
01-17-2007, 11:04 AM
Please check the members only section for a new thread there!!

I have searched, looked, explored every nook and cranny available to me. Cannot find "Members Only" 'section.'

Help! :(

Jason V
01-17-2007, 11:49 AM
Please check the members only section for a new thread there!!

I have searched, looked, explored every nook and cranny available to me. Cannot find "Members Only" 'section.'

Help! :(

ok to find that section you must be logged in to the forum and a member of the local chapter.. I will contact sean and make sure you have access.....

anyhow once logged in the members section should be at or near the bottom of the list.... ke

Jason V
01-17-2007, 11:50 AM
double post

TheRedGT
01-17-2007, 01:24 PM
ok to find that section you must be logged in to the forum and a member of the local chapter.. I will contact sean and make sure you have access.....

Member No. 371784, Region No. 47, 7-31-06


anyhow once logged in the members section should be at or near the bottom of the list.... ke

Not.

ShortysTRM
01-17-2007, 05:03 PM
I'm not sure why we've moved this to the members only section anyways, but ok.

camry3sfe
01-17-2007, 06:15 PM
I guess I cannot participate on the new thread due to the fact I am no 'official' member of SCCA at this time.

Concerning people not working and work/run groups however:

when i ran with another region I noticed they took working the course very seriously. They were not particularly rude about it either. They simply had people sign in to work... If you didn't sign in and then go work, you didn't get to run. Nothing rude about that, and it forces people to work if they want to participate. They also used run groups, which made it possible to use this sign in for work method. Not using run groups would make it hard to get people to sign in for work.

On the negative side of this was however doing run/work groups there are long periods of time when people are just out on the course, or when not working, sitting around doing nothing - which can be boring -.

Potent357
01-17-2007, 06:16 PM
I'm not sure why we've moved this to the members only section anyways, but ok.

I'm not sure why we move anything to a members only section.

I don't remember why we created the room (actually I do, but I am trying to prove a point).

What is so secretive? We no longer have a Bandit (outlaw) event to discuss so there shouldn't be anything that the club is a part of that can't be discussed in front of the world.

The members only room only further fractures the content and it keeps lots of the traffic we get in the dark as to what is going on.

I keep waiting for juicy subjects in the members room but after a couple years it hasn't happened.

I propose we eliminate the members only room and give the people that stop by one room to view the autocross related content.

Also, as I said in the beginning of this thread, I also don't see the reason for a Board Member only room. For one reason or another I have been granted acess to that secret room (on a couple occasions for brief periods) and frankly all I saw was opportunity for gossip and for discussions that are maybe better left out of print.

The Board is supposed to meet to discuss club business and it is supposed to be documented in Minutes and not cloaked in an unaccountable room.

If, in fact, we still have the private "Board only" forum, or any other private forums then I hope the Board seriously reconsiders and does away with them.

Hell, I think that if the board is discussing something, in writing, it would be helpful and informative for the membership to see the debate. We are welcome to attend the board meetings, but not go in their room.

Jason V
01-17-2007, 06:36 PM
nothing has been moved the discussion is still going on right here....

The members only section is just that .. an area for the dues paying members of the club... if the consensus is that it should be done away with that is fine by me... I don't really care.. there is no secret and no brutal pylon hazings. and Bill, trust me there are no black helicopters flying over ... yet :lol: think of it as an incentive to join the SWVRSCCA

Potent357
01-17-2007, 07:35 PM
nothing has been moved the discussion is still going on right here....

The members only section is just that .. an area for the dues paying members of the club... if the consensus is that it should be done away with that is fine by me... I don't really care.. there is no secret and no brutal pylon hazings. and Bill, trust me there are no black helicopters flying over ... yet :lol: think of it as an incentive to join the SWVRSCCA

I'll just have to disagree. That private room was created so we could discuss Gartersnake and subsequently it was used for the discussions about that moron that wrecked his car at Riverside.

If we are doing secret and questionable stuff then we damn sure shouldn't be writing it down. My position is that we aren't doing anything wrong and we have nothing to hide.

If that stupid room is an incentive to join and/or a benefit of membership then it should contain special content. How to tech articles, host pictures or videos or other CONTENT that will cause people to want to join.

Porn sites (so I have been told) have areas that anyone can view. The content on those "free" pages is what drives people to the paid (member) areas. In my mind, if we are going to have a member's area then it better be for a reason other than just to conceal our discussions from the outside world.

I see no benefit to our current arrangement.

Potent357
01-17-2007, 07:43 PM
The thread where I was super critical of the Airport course design was moved to the "Member's Area" after I made my post.

What kind of member benefit is that? It was discussion that apparently struck a bone with someone and they wanted it moved or deleted.

I intended that response to be inflammatory because the thread was populated with frauds making statements that were far different from what they said outside of the the presence of others.

It's ridiculous if it is the position of the board (past or present) that the members only room is an incentive to join. It's where we censor what some members don't want to be seen.

Potent357
01-18-2007, 11:20 AM
I have received a Personal Message from a Board Member.

In that member's opinion, I did this thread with malicious intent solely to start an online argument.

The note goes on with other nasty personal comments and ends with the statement that some things will change and that I have to live with it.


Viva 2007

SeanB
01-18-2007, 11:36 AM
Lets keep airing the dirty laundry... :(

Potent357
01-18-2007, 12:17 PM
Lets keep airing the dirty laundry... :(

Yeah, we wouldn't want anyone to see lively debate and disagreement between multiple members covering a wide range of subjects which have a direct impact on the region and its direction for 2007.

Maybe we should move this to the members only room to protect the region (or was that as a benefit to the region).

I have agitated a board member. Hell, I have probably agitated multiple board members. The membership has a right to know that. I would like to know how that is "dirty laundry".

Dirty laundry is something to be ashamed of. Should we be ashamed that a few adults that respect each other (at least I respect them) can have lively debate and disagreement?

And yes, I am being somewhat absurd, but the keen can see that I am illustrating absurdity by being absurd.

RobbieNelson
01-18-2007, 12:30 PM
Guys, if nothing else, Bill is being constructive with his comments. I agree with him on some points and disagree on others. That's OK with me. What's that they say about opinions?

I don't care if the private "rooms" go away. I don't think I've ever started a thread there. I say, clean the members room out(dirty laundry) and sort the threads into the appropriate public room.

The Board "room" may be a different story. I'm not concerned about the everyday workings of the board. When I "view new post since last visit" I don't want to have to read about whether or not the RM's came back from the printers or not. However, I think you can "deselect" rooms in the new software.... maybe not. I don't have a strong opinion on this subject.

TheRedGT
01-18-2007, 05:03 PM
Personally, I have always found dirty laundry to grow more rancid the longer it exists. And it never gets better on its own.

As much as I denied it, avoided it, and patterned my life around it, eventually I admitted that I am a Redneck, apparently by DNA :) Basically, this means after a certain breakpoint I say, "F it!," and deal.

Robbie, you rock. :D

gtfour77
01-18-2007, 05:33 PM
This is exactly what I was afraid of...guys, let's just all cool off! I personally don't really care if we keep the members only section. The BOD section needs to stay. There are different topics discussed there which regular members simply don't need to hear about....Banquet award winners, plaques, event organization, trailer issues....etc. There is simply no reason to bore people with organizational bs... We will talk about the member's only forum at the next meeting and decide on it's fate. Again everyone is encouraged to come and voice their opinion.

TheRedGT
01-18-2007, 06:33 PM
On topic:

Last year one of my most enjoyable events was the one at Ona. Interestingly, it was governed by ....... run groups. :)

gtfour77
01-18-2007, 07:01 PM
Thank you Mr. Huffman :wink: Although it was a two-group formation it was still very effective. We did so many runs I literally blew up my engine.... :roll: I promise you if you come to our newly structured events, you just might be pleasantly surprised to see how well run groups can work. (if done correctly that is...) And boy will we try!

ShortysTRM
01-18-2007, 09:58 PM
We did so many runs I literally blew up my engine....

Stupid Toyotas. Shoulda bought a Pontiac.




...... :lol:

gtfour77
01-18-2007, 10:30 PM
I know, I know, next time buddy, next time.... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Luke Zyla
01-20-2007, 08:31 AM
I enjoy reading Rich Mixtures each month. Perhaps the most important aspect of the publication is that it becomes a historical document that can help the club to grow and develop. For me, as a new member, reading the past issues helped me to learn about the club: the trials, tribulations, and successes of the past. For this reason, detailed reports of meetings and events are very important.

As far as receiving a printed version in the mail, I usually have already read it online, so it is a waste of paper and postage to me. Perhaps the editor could amend the database to filter out those who prefer to read it online and save the club a little money. A simple post on the forum or note in the next RM would do the trick.

To increase the number of articles, perhaps the editor would accept volunteers to report on each event. These people would become staff writers that would be assigned to a specific event so people would not duplicate efforts. I would certainly enjoy writing an article now and then. I don’t know if I could write articles as good as I have seen in the past, but perhaps a rookie perspective might be interesting to some.

Luke Zyla
01-20-2007, 08:57 AM
I must say that in the past I have been a run-group fan. All of the events that I attend outside of our region use them. However, I have learned a lot from the discussions online in this forum about the alternative. Does it have a name? “Just line ‘em up and zoom”? I can see the advantages to this method and how it works, especially for events with small attendance. The biggest disadvantage one experiences is the non-worker problem. Being a band director for the past 26 years and working with hundreds of volunteers, there are always people who will sit back, pick their collective snouts, and watch other people work. I, for one, have never understood what goes on in their minds, but any number of attempts to improve the situation in the past has failed. We always have a small group of wonderful, dedicated parents that are always there to help. With some people, however, they will only get off their posterior if they get something in return. Volunteerism is not in their blood. In the case of autoX, this translates into: you work, you race/ you don’t work, you go home. Run groups manage this very well. The alternative does not. I have grown to enjoy “Line ‘em up and ZOOM”. I have also grown to accept the fact that with it come a few lazy pigs. I try not to let it bother me. Unless someone wants to become the lazy pig police and talk to those people, we will just have to go with the flow.

Boy, I can’t way for tomorrows “Line ‘em up and ZOOM”. I think I will keep my treaded tires on in case it snows. The thought of jacking up my car and changing tires twice in cold weather does not appeal to me.

SentraWV
01-20-2007, 11:39 AM
To increase the number of articles, perhaps the editor would accept volunteers to report on each event.

Absolutely! Please, anybody, send me stuff! I can almost completely guarantee that it will get published. :D

I'll take your name off the snail-mail list, Luke - thanks!

NP: Mike Keneally, "Louie"

ShortysTRM
01-20-2007, 01:08 PM
Boy, I can’t way for tomorrows “Line ‘em up and ZOOM”.

...run groups tomorrow. I just hope the weather's not horrible.

sts 50
01-21-2007, 07:42 PM
Wow, what a thread! Can't wait for the first meeting - 1st Friday in Feb at Marteen's, I think. I thinks Bill's probably right about the "members only" section of the forum, at least as far as the origins go. That's also where most of our phone #'s are, which some may not want visable to the world at large. The "board only" section is useful, and I can just about guarantee that there's nothing interesting to anyone else in there. As for the whole run group thing - someone suggested a "debate" format at the next meeting. Sounds good, we did that about 3 years ago when some well meaning idiot (that would be ME) suggested changing the points structure. I can easily think of the person most passionate on each side of the argument - you know who you are - let's start by hearing them out. And let's remove the lamest arrow from each quiver - "we traditionally don't do that" and "everybody else does it this way". You wouldn't accept those arguments from your kids. Oh, and let's keep all of this CIVIL, please.

ShortysTRM
01-22-2007, 05:54 PM
Personally, I'm kind of tired of trying. The board has decided, and it looks like we'll be doing run groups this season. If it all works out to allow more runs and such, then I'm ok with it.