Question on removing pesky understeer and a few others...

[SAIORELI]

I have a Saturn Ion in RedLine trim (supercharged, uprated seats, uprated suspension, better steering feedback, LSD equipped transmission), which comes stock with a more competent suspension than the regular Ions. I had thrown on some Progress springs about a year ago, they seemed to do well though they might have been too low of a drop. The car is very jerky at higher speeds, we'll just say above 80. It feels like every minute steering input transfers into a large and sometimes seemingly uncontrollable wheel movement. Kind of scary at times actually. The car doesn't "hug" the road if you will. Ever. Now I have heard nothing but rave reviews on this car in it's stock garb. Are these Progress springs possibly too low or too stiff to be practical? I am still on the stock dampers as there are NO options yet. Other than full coil-over of course.

My other question pertains to the sometimes very prominent understeer. For the most part the rear-end will rotate beautifully on command, but when you push the car hard it just plows like it's on a wet road with slicks. Is a stiffer rear bar really the easiest solution to this? I hope to be on the track in two weeks here, pending a better performing vehicle. I already invested in the much needed LSD, but there are still a few things lacking. I appreciate any input folks. Thank you.

[SeanB]

You cannot defy physics, ALL front engine, front wheel drive cars will understeer. Why? You are asking the front wheels to do two things at once, steer the car as well as propel it. They are only capable of doing one thing at a time and only one thing at a time. Couple that with a car that has inherently too much power at its front wheels and the problem will be worse.

There are numerous ways to get a FWD car to rotate, first and foremost remove your front sway bar or get one that is immensely smaller. Next, get the largest rear sway bar you can find. Then dial in a more aggresive alignment in the car. Finally there is the whole element of driving style, knowing that a car will likely plow into a corner requires planning. It requires braking earlier and turning in earlier. Putting lowering springs and stiff springs on a car with otherwise stock shocks is silly. You end up having an ill handling car. If you change one you have to change the other, stock shocks do not have a good enough damping and rebound rate and you end up having a hopping effect.

Oh and for the record... I would venture to guess your 80 is about 120. Again, you cannot defy physics at high speeds even the slightest movement is enhanced. Driving a car at high speed safely requires having steady hands, smooth inputs lead to smooth outputs.

Here is what you don't want to hear: I can almost guarantee 90% of the problem is with the nut behind the wheel. If you really want to find out what is wrong with your car, come to the next event and grab a helmet and sit in the passenger seat of your car. Have someone like Martin, Robbie, Davis, Brad, Jason V, Jason N, Bill, etc, etc drive your car. Case in point: I am a half way ok guy behind the wheel. When Jason V codrove my car at the PVGP event the first day he was 3+ seconds faster than me. The second day I ended up less than 0.5 seconds behind, and at one stage was actually faster. Why, because I realized I was not driving like I should be. I also realized that my tire pressures were way off from what they should have been as was the alignment on the car as well as my shock settings.

[gtfour77]

Looks like the progressive springs are not helping you...and they never will, not in any good performance sense. Linear is always the better choice.
As far as the understeer, looks like you might just be over-driving the car into corners...brake earlier and "make" the car rotate...
Also, a good autocross setup will be a lot different than a track setup...(although Bill G. made his RX7 a great dual purpose machine... :drive: )

[SeanB]

I think he means track as in autox.

There are no current track events on anywhere out east as far as I know... the earliest is VIR in Feb.

[SAIORELI]

Putting lowering springs and stiff springs on a car with otherwise stock shocks is silly. You end up having an ill handling car. If you change one you have to change the other, stock shocks do not have a good enough damping and rebound rate and you end up having a hopping effect.

Oh and for the record... I would venture to guess your 80 is about 120. Again, you cannot defy physics at high speeds even the slightest movement is enhanced. Driving a car at high speed safely requires having steady hands, smooth inputs lead to smooth outputs.

Essentially, the dampers are not stock as they are an uprated piece over the stock Ion. Though they are designed to work with the stock springs obviously, there have yet to be any replacements released. So I am screwed there. As far higher speed stability, I have driven two other Saturns (A 96 SC2 and a 2002 SL2, a different platform obviously) at those same speeds and they felt 10 times more stable. It's mind boggling that a car capable of high 140s stock feels this way.

And I realize that I'm not the best driver, but I handled my bone stock SL2 way better than this beast. Something is definitely off. Maybe just leaving it the way it is and letting a more seasoned person drive it is in fact the way to go to see where I'm lacking.

I guess what it boils down to is that I want an all around more stable car, but the autocross course is more suited to my liking.

[SeanB]

Chris:

Unless you have shock dyno data on the dampers from a regular Ion and Ion RL I wouldn't put too much weight into what the manufacturer claims as an upgraded damper. Is your Ion based on any other platform? You can always try and find dampers from another car that will work. For instance Civic and Integra shocks are interchangeable because the pick up points and design is very similar.

Different cars react different at high speeds, my Accord is VERY stable at high speeds while the CRX is downright scary. It has a lot to do with weight distribution, aerodynamics, etc. Also check your steering system to make sure there are no issues there. It could be something simple as a bad bushing. Tire pressures, tire balance, tire wear, all of those will be more noticeable at high speeds.

My suggestion, if you have time put your stock springs back on. Test drive the car, see whether it feels any better. Start eliminating problems one by one. If you really want a quick fix just throw a large rear sway bar and call it quits. It'll eliminate your current oversteer problem but might cause more handling issues.

Edit:
If its autox you want to do, a super high horsepower front drive car is not the way to go. One of the top SM FWD car nationally is a reasonably lower powered Civic. It has actually less than 300 hp, but what makes it fast is its handling characteristics, brakes, tires, etc.

[ShortysTRM]

Essentially, the dampers are not stock as they are an uprated piece over the stock Ion. Though they are designed to work with the stock springs obviously, there have yet to be any replacements released.

They're still stock, and I guarantee that "uprated" only means slightly higher rate. GM errs on the soft side, even on "sports cars" (all MR2 banter aside). As for replacements, I can guarantee that there were aftermarket replacements made for that car before the first one left the assembly line. That's how many cars are nowadays, and I'm sure the Cobalt SS/Ion Redline were no exception.

My car twitched for along time, and I had thought my steering rack or PS pump had problems, but since I had my alignment corrected, it hasn't done it at all, so that could be your problem.

Bring your car out a couple more times and get a better feel for it.

[SAIORELI]

Chris: Unless you have shock dyno data on the dampers from a regular Ion and Ion RL I wouldn't put too much weight into what the manufacturer claims as an upgraded damper. Is your Ion based on any other platform? You can always try and find dampers from another car that will work. For instance Civic and Integra shocks are interchangeable because the pick up points and design is very similar.

No, there have already been a few tests done to ensure the base Ion and the RedLine have different damping characteristics while housed in essentially the same bodies. The Cobalt SS also shares the dampers, but again there is zero aftermarket support. Is it true that more rear toe helps high speed stability? Again, thank you for all the input. I hear you were supposed to come do our networking at the shop? Lol.

[ShortysTRM]

I have zero toe and about 3 degrees negative camber. Also, I responded while you were typing, so you may have missed my other post.

[SAIORELI]

They're still stock, and I guarantee that "uprated" only means slightly higher rate. GM errs on the soft side, even on "sports cars" (all MR2 banter aside). As for replacements, I can guarantee that there were aftermarket replacements made for that car before the first one left the assembly line. That's how many cars are nowadays, and I'm sure the Cobalt SS/Ion Redline were no exception.

I assure you, the LSJ community has looked up and down for replacements. One guy had a deal with KYB a LONG time ago, but nothing ever came of it. Ohlins makes remote resovoir coil-over systems...at $2400 for the set. B+G has a pre-sale going for $1200. While KW-2s ring is at $1,400. No thank you. Lol. I am going to look more into the alignment aspect of things, but it's hard to find a competent place here in Mo-town. Thanks Troy.

[SeanB]

If your car shares the same dampers as the SS you might want to try and contact David Pearson of Jeremy Lovejay. (You could try sccaforums.com.) They ran DS at Nationals this year in a Cobalt SS, I would assume they were using some form of aftermarket dampers.

Also, you might want to make a call to Koni-NA and talk to Lee Grimes. I believe he might be able to help you make custom inserts for your stock shocks. Again, its a question of whether you are willing to spend the cash. (Heck my 1700 Honda has 2000 shocks on them... its sad this addiction.)

Yeah I was supposed to do the networking at your new store, but Chris M never got back with me. Hmm... I'll drop him an email tonight.

For alignments: you have to travel to Carmicheals PA to get a really good shop that takes care of you. There is a shop there that will do custom alignments. I can probably get you their number, they should remember me as we took my friend's 3g MR2 to get a custom alignment done and they were more than happy to help. Its a shop owned by a drag racing family so they know the feeling.

[SAIORELI]

Yeah I was supposed to do the networking at your new store, but Chris M never got back with me. Hmm... I'll drop him an email tonight.

Our store is all set up though. Thank you anyhow. And I believe the Cobalt you mentioned was possibly running the Ohlins sytem. Though if they were running D-Stock, how could they have modified the suspension? Trust me when I say, no one has replacement dampers. I really wish it were so.

[SeanB]

Our store is all set up though. Thank you anyhow. And I believe the Cobalt you mentioned was possibly running the Ohlins sytem.

Cool...

The Loveday car seems to list GM Performance Division as a sponsor. I wonder if they have any aftermarket applications for your car?

In stock you can modify the suspension by changing the dampers as long as they are going into the stock location and pick up points. You can't replace the springs.

This is bugging me... if the Cobalt SS is the same deal as the Ion RL there has to be something. No really... bear with me... the Cobalt SS is being run in Showroom Stock C as well as DS nationally by a car with a GM Performance Division sticker that seems odd to me... why would they do that if they didn't have aftermarket dampers... they'd get killed with the stock ones.

[SAIORELI]

Wearing the GMPP badging tells me that it runs the Ohlins. All the GMPP track cars run them and as far as I know they are unattainable to thepublic. Even my dealer connection couldn't source them for me and he is DAMN good. The fe5 chassis option you see in parenthesis is the LSJ engine (supercharged 2.0L) equipped vehicles. Ion RedLine, Cobalt SS.

Front: Macpherson strut, no front bar, increased spring rates (fe5 option), Ohlins double adjustable struts

Rear: Twisting beam with adjustable sway bar, increased spring rates (fe5 option), Ohlins double adjustable shocks

BUTTONWILLOW, Calif. – The Chevrolet Cobalt SS Supercharged continued its Time Attack assault at Buttonwillow Raceway Park on Nov. 8, finishing with the fastest time overall (1:51) and first in the Front Engine Front Drive (FF) Unlimited Class at the Toyo Tires Time Attack presented by Super Street and eurotuner magazines. It is the second fastest time ever for a Time Attack run at Buttonwillow and eclipses the previous records set for FF Unlimited (1:57) and all-wheel-drive (AWD) Limited (1:54) classes.

[SeanB]

Looks like Penske is one of the suppliers for the SS cars. I couldn't find a price since their site is being redone.

[lilred]

You never mentioned getting the car aligned after installing the progressive springs. That is very important if you have a significant drop. even with mine being less than 2 inches I still needed one. It is my hunch if this is true that getting an alignment done will solve your high speed instability, but not necessarly fix it. As mentioned before springs/struts go hand and hand, mixing them that arent compatiable is asking for trouble. Just m 2 cents, if you have gottin and alignment then swap your stock springs back and check ur alignemnt still.

[SentraWV]

Re: IonRedLine aftermarket dampers - the OP is right. The local Saturn dealership sent me some seductive advertising a while back and I was half-tempted to go drive an Ion RedLine. Before I did, I checked all of the usual suspects and nobody has affordable off-the-shelf dampers for that car. And I wouldn't hold your breath for them - when I bought my Sentra, Koni dampers for the B15 platform were right around the corner, we were assued. Two years later they were finally right.

Remember, guys, were all (well, mostly) regional slugs just doing this for fun. Replicating the custom-made dampers the guys at Nats use isn't a very realistic option. Sadly. :cry:

[Jason V]

by progress springs I think he meant the brand name "progress"... they make decent stuff.. what I call "street" springs. anyhow they are probably progressive in rate not linear....

No one ever asked an important question... where is the car understeering... on turn in... mid corner... or corner exit....

turn in understeed can be helped with more camber and a good toe setting.. 0 or just a touch toe out.... shock settings help here to but not an option in this case... mid corner is the realm of the springs.. and bars to a certain extent... exit understeed in a high HP car is just the way it is... you solve it my being gentle with the throttle and steering.....

on turn in over driving into the corner not braking enough ect will ALWAYS result in terminal understeer... no setting changes will help!!

First thing to do in this case is get a good alignment... as much camber as you can find (negative camber please) and try 0 toe up front and just a Touch of toe in out back for stability on the highway....

PS TIRES make a HUGE difference too...

[SAIORELI]

You guys saw last time I was down there I was running full gumball tires. It's a mid-turn problem. She'll enter fine and leave fine (providing I stay out of the right pedal). This is another thing that makes me think I just plain chose the wrong springs in the first place.

[SAIORELI]

And more importantly, where are you guys getting these stellar alignments setup?

[sts 50]

If you want a car you can tweak, sell the Saturn and buy something with big aftermarket support (Honda, Subaru, Mustang, Corvette). That said, seat time will make you faster than parts. And don't "test" on the street!

[gtfour77]

And more importantly, where are you guys getting these stellar alignments setup?

You need to find a "friendly" alignemnt shop...they must know what you're after and it really helps if know what kind of alignemnt you need. Do you research for now and see what other people are running with similar setup.
Also, you can build a very cheap alignment "machine" from two pieces of 1/2 inch conduit and some string.... I use this on my daily driven cars....you can make your alinment as perfect as you want....(patience and good measuring technique will make all the difference here)

[RobbieNelson]

Also, you can build a very cheap alignment "machine" from two pieces of 1/2 inch conduit and some string.... I use this on my daily driven cars....you can make your alinment as perfect as you want....(patience and good measuring technique will make all the difference here)

Where's the how-to?

[gtfour77]

How-to is in my garage....you're welcome to come over and I'll be more than happy to show you how I do it...;)

Otherwise here is a good link...a little too complicated but a good info... like I said before, you can make this as perfect as you wish.

http://www.quadesl.com/miata_alignment.shtml

Also here: http://www.sr20forum.com/archive/index.php/t-29158-p-2.html

[Jason V]

String alignments are not hard... and as accurate as any race car needs... it just takes time....

in a very simple nutshell... string perfect box arround car.... now you can measure from sting to wheels to find out toe settings per side... ie make sure the car goes straight... same for rear if that is adjustable... for camber and castor it is a HUGE help to have a bubble camber tool (uses a bubble level to measure camber or castor)... look up Discovery Parts online for one.. or Pegesus ect...

hardest part is getting the "box" right.. seems simple enough untill you try it... Measure.. measure.... oh and measure again.. PS the more level the ground is the better... esp for the before mentioned bubble gauge...

Also if you have the car aligned at a shop then it is very easy to change toe as long as you make the same change for each side.. a paint refrence mark is great for counting the turns on the tie rods.... camber is the same keep the changes equal and the car will still go straight after the work....

I changed the alignment on the MINI over 15 times... my old FSP golf had many more changes than that... Alignment is one of the most overlooked aspect of setting a car up.....