Proposed changes to how we run

[SeanB]

My proposed solution, same thing that SCR uses.

3 run groups... you run, you work, then you rest.

Group 1: all stock except HS - since HS usually has 10-15 cars
Group 2: HS, Street Prepared, Prepared
Group 3: STS, STX, STU, Modified, SM, SM2.

(If you look at this event - Group 1 - 16 cars, Group 2- 20 cars, Group 3 - 19 cars.)

I think you'd end up with about 25 cars per group. Naturally you can switch those groups around if you have a month where a certain class has more cars.

Have 3 runs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon, each group should be able to do their 3 runs in less than 1.5 hrs. Create a false grid, have cars parked at the said grid and a grid marshall will have cars pull out to run.

This way you get two 1.5 or so hrs to do whatever the heck you want.

[gtfour77]

My proposed solution, same thing that SCR uses.

3 run groups... you run, you work, then you rest.

Group 1: all stock except HS - since HS usually has 10-15 cars
Group 2: HS, Street Prepared, Prepared
Group 3: STS, STX, STU, Modified, SM, SM2.

(If you look at this event - Group 1 - 16 cars, Group 2- 20 cars, Group 3 - 19 cars.)

I think you'd end up with about 25 cars per group. Naturally you can switch those groups around if you have a month where a certain class has more cars.

Have 3 runs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon, each group should be able to do their 3 runs in less than 1.5 hrs. Create a false grid, have cars parked at the said grid and a grid marshall will have cars pull out to run.

This way you get two 1.5 or so hrs to do whatever the heck you want.

+1
This is what Steel Cities use and it DOES work great! Hope we can come up to a conclusion at the next membership meeting.

[Davis K Powers]

+1

looks good

edit:
its work, run, rest, work, run, rest, work, etc... right?

double edit: Sean clarified....and new thread, thanks

[Kijjy]

My proposed solution, same thing that SCR uses.

3 run groups... you run, you work, then you rest.

Group 1: all stock except HS - since HS usually has 10-15 cars
Group 2: HS, Street Prepared, Prepared
Group 3: STS, STX, STU, Modified, SM, SM2.

(If you look at this event - Group 1 - 16 cars, Group 2- 20 cars, Group 3 - 19 cars.)

I think you'd end up with about 25 cars per group. Naturally you can switch those groups around if you have a month where a certain class has more cars.

Have 3 runs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon, each group should be able to do their 3 runs in less than 1.5 hrs. Create a false grid, have cars parked at the said grid and a grid marshall will have cars pull out to run.

This way you get two 1.5 or so hrs to do whatever the heck you want.

Okay, here is what my understanding of what North Hills does...

Everyone runs say 5 runs, once each time. For one of the run times, you go twice. For another you work the ENTIRE time period, but that is the only time you will work during the day.

My problem with running all my runs at one time is...
I'm not very good. I like to watch others, listen to others, and learn from how they do things. Each run I get better, because I can learn from my mistakes. If I run all my runs at one time, in my opinion I won't get better.

If I misunderstood something, please clarify for me...

[gtfour77]

We could almost set up a poll.... Sean?

[SeanB]

Okay, here is what my understanding of what North Hills does...

Everyone runs say 5 runs, once each time. For one of the run times, you go twice. For another you work the ENTIRE time period, but that is the only time you will work during the day.

My problem with running all my runs at one time is...
I'm not very good. I like to watch others, listen to others, and learn from how they do things. Each run I get better, because I can learn from my mistakes. If I run all my runs at one time, in my opinion I won't get better.

If I misunderstood something, please clarify for me...

You get 3 runs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon, so you aren't doing your runs all at once. There is still about 10 minutes between each of your runs in the group to talk to the other drivers and get feedback. When I run with SCR I have time between my runs to look at the course, talk to the better drivers and gauge my competition.

Remember that North Hills is a very small club and their methods works because of that.

I will break this thread out as a seperate thread.

[Kijjy]

You get 3 runs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon, so you aren't doing your runs all at once.

Okay, I see now! I didn't catch the afternoon part... Thanks!

+1 (Steel Cities)

[mordant80]

+1 for SCR method. Seems similar to RCR, but they only have 2 run groups... so you're workin or driving. I like the idea of 3 groups for this region. Work, run, rest... sounds like a winner.

[SeanB]

Roy came up with a great idea over dinner about how to post times. Dry erase board, have someone stand there with a marker and write down the times. No one has to bug the trailer for times then. (I think our club used to do this eons back, because I have seen a dry erase board in the trailer.)

[wvphoto]

+1 for SCR method. Seems similar to RCR, but they only have 2 run groups... so you're workin or driving. I like the idea of 3 groups for this region. Work, run, rest... sounds like a winner.

this sounds good.. gives everyone a chance to work.

[suzbndt]

I run with rcr all the time in the past, and they run two run groups that works great for them, but I think your group is to big for that.

I have a suggestion when every one gets registered creat four groups with nearly equal number of cars in it.

Try to put like classes together if you can, but it really doesn't matter.

Set like a grid where you always follow the same car to grid.

group 1 run group 3 work

next group 2 run group 4 work

group 3 run group 1 work

group 4 run group 2 work

ie run rest work rest run

this type of shedule would also allow workers to be at the trailer ready to go out to work. I would suggest splitting amount of runs in half and do two sessions. ie 4 runs total 2 runs back to back then two more later

[lilred]

#1 Basically what I try to do anyways.

So if Ive read this right.

Assumed timeline?

Group 1 runs, 2 rests, 3 works
Gropu 2 runs, 3 rests, 1 works
Group 3 runs, 1 rests, 2 works

Twice an event?

Am I right about this?

[SeanB]

#1 Basically what I try to do anyways.

So if Ive read this right.

Assumed timeline?

Group 1 runs, 2 rests, 3 works
Gropu 2 runs, 3 rests, 1 works
Group 3 runs, 1 rests, 2 works

Twice an event?

Am I right about this?

That is correct.

SCR does this with 100-120 cars on average, everyone gets 3 runs in the morning and 3 in the afternoon.

[SentraWV]

Create a false grid, have cars parked at the said grid and a grid marshall will have cars pull out to run.

Where/how would you do the false grid at Riverside? The places I've run where they do that have much more space than we do at RHS. It's a good idea, if we could figure the logistics.

I like the Steel Cities idea, and think we could make it work without a false grid. It would be much easier to keep 20 or so people in constant rotation for runs than 55 or so.

[SeanB]

I agree creating a false grid would be a problem given our lack of real estate. I was thinking we can park the cars that are not running by the ATM and maybe back where Davis and those guys park. As you said a constant rotation system would work better, I seriously think we should try it during the benefit event.

[BlueZ0644]

We have done work groups similar to post #1 and it does work. Everyone works and you get some time off. The logistics of splitting the classes is a major pain in the posterior, but once it is set up - it's done (at least for that event). It cures the constant whining for workers also. No work = disqualified for the event. Harsh, but fair. We also used the dry erase boards in the past. Creates another worker position (or 3). Again, set-up is a pain. I'm for whatever works.

[SeanB]

Creating the run groups is easy... once we have everyone registered and entered in the PC we can do a print out and split it into 3 groups. The dry erase board position will just become another worker spot.

[SentraWV]

Also, with our new staggered registration scheme, we've had about 2/3 of people sign up online. We can create the run groups based on the online registrants and it will be fairly easy to add the walk ups.

[daveorn]

While I am still very new to autocross,( one event at SCR, three at SWVR), I feel that the SCR system has a lot of merit. It is efficent, should not take much overhead, and is very fair. Everyone works, thus no one should have hurt feelings, and everyone gets at least six runs.

Since we are smaller and have a lot less parking and staging room, I agree that a false grid is not feasable. The continuous start should work. If we have access to a printer, immediately after registration (perhaps during the Drivers Meeting) the run groups with staging order of the classes and participants could be posted. Then each run group could line up approximately in accordance with the running order posted. If a few people are out of order it wouldn't hurt anyting, and a constant flow of cars could be established. If necessary we could have a staging marshall to assist in lining up the cars, but we should be able to line up ourselves.

As far as having a dedicated worker posting times on a dry board, I would think, again if we have access to a printer, that a timing list could be printed after each run group completes its run. While this may not give immediate feedback, each participant could check his time at his leasure after his run group, without interferring with the other workers.

Again thes are just a few hopefuly constructive comments to make the events even more fun than they are now.

Dave Orndorff

[Chaos_CB7]

my question is what about the people that take pictures and videos. I mean sure they can take them on there break but then there not going to be able to get everyone.

[Neogema]

I agree that run groups is the way to go, everyone will work and events will probably go a lot smoother.

[ShortysTRM]

I'm really torn on this, but I think the run groups are the way to go. Not if we take all of our runs at once, but if they're split [as has been suggested], I'm all for it. I love how casual our events are, but it does seem like we need to try something different. This last event made me realize two things. The late-day heat drastically reduces times [for some], which will make the raw results inconsistent, and the same for the PAX times, since some people will take their last run at 3PM, and others at 5PM. The difference may not be big enough to be concerned with, though. And second, had Sunday's event gone smoother, without so many timing/corner worker/cars to the line delays, we could've had 6-7 runs on what was the longest course we've run in a while, not to mention one of the funnest.

I'm glad someone besides myself brought up the point about video and pictures. The only solution I can think of is to possibly transfer myself to another run group so April can run camera while my run group is running, and vice versa. At BRR, we did all of our runs at once, really early in the morning, when it was like 50 degrees outside. Not only did I not get any footage whatsoever of my run group, I was finished driving before noon, IIRC. After that, it was like 6 hours of course work and recording video...and getting sunburned.

[Potent357]

A couple of people have inquired as to my position on all this so I thought I would chime in.

First, No I am not mad at the club or mad at someone in particular. I have not made it to an autocross simply because of conflicting schedules (and when there wasn't a conflict, it was laziness or the weather)

3 of our event weekends this year have found me at VIR instructing. Even this weekend I was at VIR (with Dan Combs) and we were both knee deep in students and track time.

As someone who has been active (to semi-active) in this region since the late 1980's, it's somewhat comical to experience the cyclical nature of discussions such as these.

Participation in the club always ebbs and flows, but there has always been a consistent core of long time members that more or less keep things organized and keep the club going on.

Every few years we have a massive influx of new blood and that new group brings their own ideas, their own energy and after a while they start to wrestle control of the ship from the elders.

I was part of an insurgency in the early 1990's and we certainly had our own ideas and wanted to do things our own ways.

Some improvements were made, some egos were stepped on, but I learned that after a while the only people the club could truly rely on were the long time stalwarts and mostly, things just went back to how this region has always done it.

It was in that era we upgraded to a computer system, we changed registration procedures, Rich Mixture was changed all together and several other key facets of this club were "updated".

Sadly, as I said, in the end the club was eventually left to rely on the same old guard that kept things going in the past and much of the new, energetic blood, got tired of the hobby, tired of the repetition or went on to bigger and better things.

This cycle happens time and time again. In fact, some would say it last happened about 5-7 years ago when a bunch of great new members arrived. Lots of those guys went on to be active on the Board, most of them have hung around and that wave of people brought great updates and great new energy to the club.

Now we are in the throws of another "new wave" of members and increased participation and attendance at the autocross events. From what I can tell it is mostly a small core group of "new" people that are running absolutely everything in the club.

Frankly, I think it is GREAT, but my emotions are tempered with the same concern that the elders before me had.

If we make wholesale changes on how the club and the events are run then where will we be when the inevitable happens and much of this new guard of members goes off to other hobbies.

Put simply, we have tried run groups in the past. In fact, we tried variations of all different ways to run an event and mostly they didn't work. Our region is small, we like the laid back atmosphere and my recollection is that we, as a group, didn't respond well to the structure necessary in run groups.

I support anything that the club as a whole wants to do, but I would caution all of the new blood to remember that better than 90% of the members of this region aren't active day to day on this message board.
Most of the long time members stay away from the message board and many of the regular autocrossers have no participation here either.

The club is much more than what is discussed by about 10 different people on this forum. Granted, we can't get people to show up at meetings either, but I believe that the prior generations have always respected those that don't speak up and those that don't show up at meetings and have always tried to keep things "the same".

Change isn't always bad, and maybe a more structured setup would assure more runs and more workers, but I would have to see it to believe it.

If getting workers is the main complaint from Sunday, I would only comment that workers are almost never a problem when I am there announcing. It all comes down to how the event is run and how the competitors understand what is expected of them.

In our region we have always given someone the rope to hang themselves. IF they chose to not carry their weight of the work then we would make them feel unwelcome enough that they would change their behavior or they would quit coming to the events. Personally, I always liked that system.

Wanting to work by a schedule is a noble desire. Wanting to know exactly when you run and when you rest is also something that would seem to make the events run smoother, but I would just go back to saying that we have tried all this before.

To me, we just need to have a few members that the club can rely on to lay down the law and make sure that the expectations are laid out in advance at the events.

I admire the efforts of all you "new guard" in keeping this region going. The events are fun, participation is up and I think it is squarely due to the efforts of the internet capable guys and what is accomplished here and on other message boards.

I still caution that there is lots more to this region than this message board and I believe that anyone that has been around a while would agree. There used to be a reason to go to the meetings and to read the Rich Mixture but now all that stuff is discussed and played out long before a meeting or issue comes around.

Personally, I think a far more pressing issue is the fact that we still have a looming probability of the loss of Riverside. I don't know what the powers that be are telling whoever is in the loop in our region, but I can guarantee the liability issue isn't resolved and we may get swept up in the entire thing.

Ona isn't a solution because unless they have undertaken a comprehensive round of paving since I was there last, it isn't a suitable place for a Solo 2 event (in my humble opinion).
I am probably stepping on toes, but I think it is an incredible waste of effort and a risk in safety to put on a Solo event on that oval track. I don't see how it passes the muster as a legal course.

If the masses want Run Groups then give it a try. I just hope the people discussing these changes will give a nod to history and tradition and check in with those that may not have an account here and may not always make it to a meeting. In the end, is those people that will likely be left to pick up the pieces after others move on to other, sexier, hobbies and exploits.

[crobin4]

Word of wisdom. Thank You. :D Sexier hobbies like High End Audio? ...

These are all good points on both sides. I'm not a very good shunner though. I don't know a good way to promote a good work ethic in those who don't have one, other than making them do it. Work or don't run next event. If it their it's 1st or 2nd event put them with someone to learn until they can be assigned by themselves. I don't think anything that needs done is that hard to do that one should feel intimidated about to a specific job. Whatever you guys need help with let me know I'll do what I can. I shall go to the next Safety Steward training for our region when it comes up again. And I didn't get to work with Registration this past time for whatever reason. I'll try to get it together a bit earlier next event so I can help more.

[Slowfart]

I don't think we need to have a poll. The Board members are here to do this stuff. It is hard enough to get 6 people to agree, let alone 60. I don't mind work groups, but like Sean said, who is going to run and enforce it. Any volunteers?

[SeanB]

I 100% agree that there is a certain bit of history on how this club is run, but it seems to me that this new blood are the ones that are regularly attending events. With the increasing number of participants isn't there a need to have some sort of structure? Sure it defies history, tradition and everything else; but so does having electronic timing. I don't see anyone complaining about that, what about this site its a new deal that didn't exist a few years back. It would seem silly to go back to stop watches and closing this site.

I apologize if this thread/post is offensive to anyone, that wasn't the intention it was just to gauge the opinion of others who run else where to see if they felt there was a need or a desire to have a more structured approach similar to what we see in bigger regions. This region will grow, the new blood that most speak of will soon become the old blood.

Believe me, some of us spend every waking minute planning for the weekend to go run an autox somewhere. A the end of the day I call this club home and short of moving a 1000 miles away I will continue to attend events regardless of how they are run.

Opinions are just that opinions, you may disagree or agree with them.

[Slowfart]

It doesn't defy history in the club to have structure, it has been run alot more efficiently in the past than it is now.We do have structure in the form of by-laws but most of them are ignored. I think the young blood is the future of our organization but when you look at it, most of the work is still done by the same few. I already said I don't mind run groups, just give us some ground rules and get it moving. I think you are doing a great job keeping the web site up and working with the timing system, now lets get someone to organize the run group issue. Like I said before, any volunteers?

[ShortysTRM]

I still feel a little uneasy thinking that some kid who could care less about working the course is in charge of my safety, as well as anyone else's at the event.

I like to hear from Bill, though I didn't hear anyone ask about his position. He has very good points, brings up some that we hadn't thought of, or at least hadn't discussed, and is very well-spoken...well, at least on the forum.

I have attended/competed in as many events in my 1 1/2 - 2 years of autocrossing as many of the "old blood" have attended in the last 4 years, as well as taking an active role in, well, everything I have time to participate in. Maybe I will be gone in a few months, maybe I'll be here til I die, who knows..? As I said before, I, too, love the informal, laid-back atmosphere we have at our events. The "cycle" that Bill referred to is an interesting phenomenon to say the least. Though I've not been here long enough to witness a full changing of the guards, I have seen some integral people come and go, and it does seem like a smaller cycle exists within the larger scale. It seems like once a year, we go through a period of unrest and disagreement within the club, and like Bill said, much of it is handled on the forums and is never even discussed with the long-time members who don't bother to check the forums. Another point, however, is that many of the people we consider to not be active on the forums, in fact, are here everyday, and they prefer to stay quiet. I can't say I really blame them.

I don't know that there was any useful information in this post, BTW. I was trying to hurry, but it ended up about 3 paragraphs longer than I had anticipated.

[gtfour77]

I was going to volunteer to organize corner workers untill we get solid ground rules for the run groups. We are not trying undermine or otherwise negatively affect the current runnings of the club but groving interest in autocrossing in this area will force us to do something about this. With our number of people attending events so far we need to be able to run at least 6 runs and still have plenty of time to do fun runs. We are all trying to have fun and can only master the fun factor if we have a well organized and structured events with EVERYBODY taking part in the club. I know we have some people who think their contribution of $17 or $22 entitles them to JUST run and then leave.... How WRONG can one be...
I think Jason V. said it best..."I Autocross to have fun!! " ..... This should be the bottom line and we all will have fun only if the events go as smooth as possible without having all these problems and misunderstandings and we all get to run as many runs as we possibly can...
Just one more thought... I thinkwe must be the only region in the entire United States without run groups and structured worker assignments... Even River Cities with a handful of people attending each event has run groups...
Another thought is tire warming....didn't want to bring this up but run groups would eliminate any kind of advantage this might bring. I know we all have to warm up our cars after a lond period between runs and that's the excuse we use... And yes I am as guilty as anybody but we only do it because we can... needless to say this is a huge no no in the world of Solo competition...

[SeanB]

Thank you Marteen, I will help you in organizing the workers if you need it. :)

[Potent357]

I'm not against anything or anyone, but I just think that the club lacks perspective on these issues.

Joe said it best that this stuff is a Board issue and we need the board to take the suggestions and make the decision whether we should go forward.

The newer guys in the club are carrying quite a burden and doing a bunch of the leg work. I consider all of you guys friends and admire the efforts you put forth.

I am just somewhat jaded in that I have seen it all happen before and have seen other eager people disappear into the mist when the real work needs done.

We have always been a somewhat fractured club. Our racers tend to not socialize with the solo guys, our rally program is nil and the participation at the meetings has always been the same 20-30 people regardless of how the meetings are promoted or where they are held.

Our Board has always had a focus on Solo because that's basically all we can pull off with regularity. I just believe that if the Solo membership truly want these changes then it should be hashed our farther and further than is possible on here between the same cast of characters that populate this forum.

I don't think the idea or the discussion or this thread was a bad idea, but I do think that changes like this are not to be taken lightly unless we want to make other fundamental changes within the club.

Duties controlling the run structure must be assigned to Board Members so someone other than than the RE and the Event Director are actually doing anything. The Board members need to be introduced to the participants and given Police powers to enforce rules without fear of retribution.

I go back to my statements that when certain members are active at the events we never have problems procuring workers or keeping cars at the line. I just think it can be done without the structure of run groups, but if the region wants it, I will support it.

[Potent357]

I like to hear from Bill, though I didn't hear anyone ask about his position.

It's hard to believe but there are discussions that occur off these boards.

[SeanB]

Again, I agree changes like these need to be thought through and talked in detail during meetings.

As much as I'd like to see our rally program improve, I don't see it happening because of the lack of proper facilities.

[MountaineerSTi]

I think I must have missed the part at this event where there were no corner workers. I dont even recall a plea for corner workers over the mic.

[ShortysTRM]

They definitely happened...they indicating plural.

[crobin4]

Word of wisdom. Thank You. :D Sexier hobbies like High End Audio? ...

These are all good points on both sides. I'm not a very good shunner though. I don't know a good way to promote a good work ethic in those who don't have one, other than making them do it. Work or don't run next event. If it their it's 1st or 2nd event put them with someone to learn until they can be assigned by themselves. I don't think anything that needs done is that hard to do that one should feel intimidated about to a specific job. Whatever you guys need help with let me know I'll do what I can. I shall go to the next Safety Steward training for our region when it comes up again. And I didn't get to work with Registration this past time for whatever reason. I'll try to get it together a bit earlier next event so I can help more.

You know after making this post above, I was driving home and thinking (about driving yes) ,about who I could pin down that I never see doing anything or has made it clear that they have no desire to help. I just could not think of any. Perhaps this is not really a case of "LackaWanna" on members and those who have run with us that are not members, yet. Here are some scenerios to concider.... And, I'm guilty of these things as much as anyone else I've seen... Not being able to hear the calls for workers, being involved in a conversation and being distracted from the event and the needs of the people performing a specific task, or being out to lunch. Now these events are as much Social Events as Much As They Are Competition Events. They Are Competition Events First, but the distractions can't be ignored, but they probably have to be tolerated. If a structure (work assignments) is necessary to keep everyone's head in the game then that may be a seemingly "easy" solution.
It may be as simple as an active region member (not necessarily a board member, but not excluding them either) taking a new person "under their wing" so to speak and educating them on the club what we do and what is expected of them, this may happen for an event or two.
I don't know about anyone else, but at my first event or two I was afraid of doing something IMPORTANT for the safety of the event such as (corner working, starting, and yes announcing) as I was not sure who was going to "show me the way. I would never want someone to be hurt because I didn't know what F*** I was doing. At times, I still feel sometimes that I don't know what I should be doing to help, worker assignments may be just the thing for that IMHO. But, I don't think that it is the only solution.
This is most definately a board issue and the will have to be solved by the board after a lot of thought, and feedback from regular members.
I offer all this as something to think about not neccessary as a big idea that solves anything.
Hell, for all I know I may be part of the problem, rather than the solution. I hope to be part of the solution somehow.
Hope this has some value in the dicussion, Cheers :D

[ShortysTRM]

Well said.


I just hope that the Board can resolve this without anyone being stubborn or starting a full-on argument about it. Either way we go about it, the world will still rotate once every ~24 hours, autocross will still be fun, and most of us will still be happy just to be involved.

[Sean Halloran]

All points discussed here on the this forum are valid and should be considered. As for a vote on a change it should be strickly left to the board and the clubs Bylaws.
Any questions needing answered about event structures can usually be found in the Solo II rule book. A careful reading in these pages would shed a lot of light on this entire subject. I am fairly certain not many commenting on these forums have ever seen a copy or downloaded one to see its contents. I would urge some to do so. It would clearly describe some of the general rules we seem to ignore at most of our events.
If we are trying to run events such as those held in Steel Cities and North Hills, that is fine. I have competed with that fine group several times (1990, 1991 and 1997). If I remember correctly they generally have more participation than our group on a regular event. Obviously they also have some national level drivers. We on the other hand generally have 45 to 65 competitors. It seems to me that we would be doing a lot of changes for such a small group. If that is what is decided, I will certainly comply as I have for the last 25 years. But as Bill said I caution changes made abruptly and without clear thought of execution. After some decide to change and leave, the diehard "Old Guard" will still be here to pick up after others have left.
I do approve of good change and encourage the input of the "New Guard". Every member that is part of this Region or any other should put in their share of effort.